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Dec. 4th, 2003

so i have found one half of the accursed split enz box set. i fret i will never find the other half for less than a million zillion dollars. sigh.

i totally didn't call my dad and wish him a happy birthday last night because i am a terrible daughter. GAH. i called him this morning but still. so, belated happy birthday dad!!! i need to get on the ball about the parents' birthdays now that i feel i am a real adult!!!

they've set up festive holiday decorations in the lobby. these include but are not limited to weird statues of black bears in santa hats humping snowmen. if i had my camera, i'd take a picture.

with more and more friends having kids all over the place, i've been more and more attuned to observing the way people treat boys and girls differently from a very young age. it's amazing the things people say about treating children and the way children will act and the way to react to it based on gender. i am observing all this in case someday i have some little ankle-biters myself. i'm sure i won't know what it's like until i have one. in my mind's eye, however, no matter what your feelings on the natural bent of girls or boys, treating children differently automatically fosters inequality. i'm sure this attitude annoys people.

also i think people may have started putting less stock in my judgement of people since i have opened my circle of friends as widely as i can.

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Comments

( 28 comments — Leave a comment )
crafting_change
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:28 am (UTC)
woa... your dad's b-day is dec 3? He is a crazy conservative right?

My dad's b-day and temperment is the same.
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:39 am (UTC)
whoah! spooky!!

he's not crazy, but he's a conservative. I mean, i think conservatism is crazy but i don't think my dad is crazy. you know? :)
crafting_change
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:41 am (UTC)
v. spooky.

Oh if he's a logical conservative that's totally cool.. I'm probably skewed as my father is one of those 'Nixon was great....he wasn't a liar!' sort of bandwagon conservatives.
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:44 am (UTC)
i bet if my dad sees this post he'll let me know if he's one of those sort. :) i love my dad, but oh do we ever disagree.
crafting_change
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:53 am (UTC)
that is way cool that you two can find some common ground some where though.
prakriti
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:39 am (UTC)
I have 2 cats, one is a gay male and the other is a little girl, and I totally treat them differently. The boy (obleo) fends for himself and the girl (tuesday) is molly coddles and spoiled. *removing tongue from cheek*

Actually, I'd be really interested to hear your observations on how people treat their kids differently, lest I fall into the same traps when I get old and kid enabled.
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:34 am (UTC)
I haven't got enough good concrete observations to go around, but I have heard people say surprising things about "oh, if you are like X you should have a boy" or something to that effect. If I feel I can verbalize it without feeling like I'm going to disrespect someone I care about I guess I will go into more detail. I already feel like I shouldn't have said anything.
professorbooty
Dec. 6th, 2003 08:32 am (UTC)
...
Your British initiation is going well, but you still have much to learn if you wish to become a third degree master of tooth boxing. "Mollycoddled" is the word you were looking for. Careful, I hear that Blair's government is very stern on enforcement of traditionally British words like this, "lorries," and "God Emperor Bush of the Holy States of America."
zenthia
Dec. 4th, 2003 09:52 am (UTC)
My parents managed to raise my brother and I as free from gender as is possible, so maybe you could watch some old videos of us as kids for ideas. ;)

I think we were treated the same, they allowed us to follow our own natural inclinations. I never got out of yard work on account of being a girl. And up until he hit puberty (damn testosterone!) I was stronger than my brother anyway. I was the one that helped dad in the garage more often, my bro was more likely to be watching sappy movies with mum.... The two of us are both very gender neutral with I think me ending up just boy-side of the gender line and he just girl-side. Yay androgeny!

Have I mentioned how much it annoys me that I work out three times a week and yet I will never be stronger than my bro who does naught but program from a chair?
tzel
Dec. 4th, 2003 03:49 pm (UTC)
Hey, but if you hit him from behind while he's sitting in that chair...
zenthia
Dec. 4th, 2003 06:25 pm (UTC)
Aw! My brother wouldn't hurt a fly! That's no way to treat 'im. Even if his hormones give him more brawn!

But good use of the intellect vs. muscle sneaky equalizer. ;)
professorbooty
Dec. 6th, 2003 08:38 am (UTC)
...
"My parents managed to raise my brother and I as free from gender as is possible..."

I just pictured a truly horrible Jerry Springer episode. "My parents removed my genitals and gave me drugs to suppress the development of secondary sexual traits, SO I BECAME A STRIPPER."
subliminaltea
Dec. 4th, 2003 10:07 am (UTC)
Hehe. This reminds me of a story my mom tells... she used to be hardcore opposed to gender stereotyping in children too. After she had my two older sisters, she claimed that there should be no difference between boys and girls, it's all how you raise them. Apparently my grandma laughed at her... a lot. Then continued laughing at her when she had me, and I was an absolute fiend, climbing all over everything, taking things apart to see how they worked, etc. Completely different from my sisters. What does this prove? Not much, it's only one case. But it is kinda funny.
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:36 am (UTC)
I've heard this "boys are more rambunctious and fiendish" thing before. I believe the conditioning starts from birth so, it's hard to prove to me that it's something inherent in boyhood. Nay, I refuse to believe it is.
tzel
Dec. 4th, 2003 03:48 pm (UTC)
I don't think that boys are really worse than girls, but when they act up people say "oh, they're just being boys" or "they're all boy" and if a girl does it they're being horrible and unladylike.
eeedge
Dec. 5th, 2003 10:36 am (UTC)
I don't believe in gender tendencies for the most part. I have two girls, one of whom is into the whole "pink pretty princess" thing to an extent that makes me want to gag, and the other prefers green and beating on things. They were raised with the same toys (just about all the *same* toys) by two parents who really really hate Disney. I think it's nature rather than nurture.
castironskillet
Dec. 4th, 2003 10:58 am (UTC)
got any observations/input/etc. for me?
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:38 am (UTC)
Right now the input would boil down to, watch yourself and think about how you think about things... do you treat her more delicately? Later on, do you encourage her to do the same things, use the same language that you would with a son? I don't really see you as the type to treat your daughter like a porcelain doll or any kind of level one version of that tendency. Have you noticed anything yourself?
castironskillet
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:42 am (UTC)
Totally not - just wondered from your message if you had. Thanks!
castironskillet
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:44 am (UTC)
We plan Irish step-dancing, piano, and Judo for her.
snidegrrl
Dec. 4th, 2003 11:48 am (UTC)
No recreational arc-welding?! Oh my gosh what a prejudice. ;)
zenthia
Dec. 4th, 2003 12:58 pm (UTC)
Electric guitar! I sense rock and roll from her....
castironskillet
Dec. 4th, 2003 01:02 pm (UTC)
... It all comes from piano. If she gets good at piano she'll be able to play anything.
professorbooty
Dec. 6th, 2003 08:45 am (UTC)
...
Ballistics.

If you want an archetypical Heinlein character for a daughter, you need to add ballistics to the above list.
castironskillet
Dec. 6th, 2003 10:26 pm (UTC)
Re: ...
:) for sure. but we're gonna start these others before eight. ballistics start at eight in my family - you get a pocket knife and get to fire .22s under supervision. i think it worked well on me.
tzel
Dec. 4th, 2003 03:45 pm (UTC)
Well, I was treated like a little boy til I started bleeding, then I was supposed to be girl. My dad stopped taking me places opting to take other people's sons instead. Then he tried to pair me off with said sons so I could spit out a grandson ASAP. I'm totally with you on the treating kids differently because of gender. Teach the boys to cook and sew, teach the girls to shoot and climb trees. They'll figure out what's "their thing" when they get around to it.
rob_donoghue
Dec. 5th, 2003 05:01 am (UTC)
Nah. Has no real impact on stock in your judgement from my perspective, though it does have impact. Sadly, discussing that impact here would prove somethign of a catch-22.
professorbooty
Dec. 6th, 2003 09:14 am (UTC)
...
My mom was pretty good with the gender neutral upbringing (after the divorce, mainly), but she couldn't follow me to school or other public places to protect me from the expectations and judgment of friends and strangers. It's tough for a kid to be different. Sadly, traditional gender roles and behavior are still the expected norm in most areas of society. I'm not saying that I wish my mother had raised me differently*, but I sure do wish that the rest of the world would get with the program.


* [Well, less guilt trips would have been nice, but I blame her Catholic upbringing for that. You can take the criminal out of prison, but you can't take prison out of the criminal, or something.]
( 28 comments — Leave a comment )

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